Lance Stroll, Williams, Bahrain International Circuit, 2017

Sainz: Stewards too proud to consider appeals

F1 Fanatic Round-up

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In the round-up: Carlos Sainz Jnr says F1 stewards would not reconsider penalties even when they are subject to appeal.

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Comment of the day

@Gt-racer gives some insight into the change to F1 broadcasts this year:

They have gone back to using lower angles, To holding those low angles longer and using slower zooms/panning in order to bring out the speed of the cars. This is something fans have been asking them to do for a number of years now, To go back to the F1 Digital + style of covering things.

The only problem with the coverage has been that some of the new systems haven’t worked as well as they did when they were been tested. The mini sectors been incorporated into the timing graphics for example is something that was tested and worked flawlessly pre-season but is something that over the 1st race weekend caused other systems to crash with getting to the bottom of that proving difficult since it all works fine up until the point cars get on track.

There is also some new stuff planned that hasn’t been seen yet as the problems they have suffered has prevented them using all the new toys they have in store.

It goes back to what I said a few months ago. The reason you were seeing wide shots, Slow panning and a focus on advertisements the past few years is because Bernie Ecclestone and CVC were asking them to cover it that way. Liberty have gone back to letting the TV team do things the way they want to do it and the improvements are only going to get even better as the year goes on.

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  • 63 comments on “Sainz: Stewards too proud to consider appeals”

    1. And drivers are not to proud to admit when they made a mistake are they Carlos?!?

      1. Alexander Disner
        21st April 2017, 1:46

        You are talking about the spoiled brat who doesn’t want to be called Jr, when his father achieved more than he will ever achieve, and is the real reason why he’s sitting behind the wheel of a Formula 1 car, being a mediocre driver.

        1. His father achieved what he did by being a spoiled brat… He’s just like his father.

        2. Being called “[anything] Jr” tends not to go very well in the F1 paddock; people in it are apt to assume such people are still child-like, whether they are or are not. Carlos choosing to drop the “Jr” made perfect sense as a result.

        3. Willem Cecchi (@)
          21st April 2017, 8:16

          Carlos has proved in the last two years that he is more than up for the job.

          1. He has proven he has quality, but this is purely disappointing from him as the incident was unnecessary and his fault.

            1. He’s been extremely impressive on track during most of his 50+ races.
              But rather than a ‘racing incident’ I’d call this one an ‘opportunistic move’ by Carlos Sainz ‘son of Sr’ ;)

        4. Until his collision with Stroll, Sainz was doing a very good job climbing through the field, in a manner not unlike Verstappen had managed in China.

          I do feel that there should be an appeals system in place for some penalties. This penalty, however, does not warrant an appeal, Sainz was fully to blame.

      2. Drivers don’t make the rules though! Judges should be impartial enough to admit mistakes, all motorsport stewarding is very very biased, what the stewards consider just, not the actual rules. If we used CGI to interpret every accident without the drivers known to the stewards, that would be a very big step toward blind justice.

        1. OK, but this was the correct decision, so it wouldn’t have made any difference here.

      3. The main reason we won’t see in-race penalties (like grid penalties or added time) become subject to appeal is that it’s nigh-on impossible to fairly reverse something like a drive-through penalty without cheating somebody (be it the person who was given the wrong penalty or people who weren’t involved in the original incident). Even the “+5 second” penalties, when taken mid-race rather than added on at the end, can change what teams and drivers do in response and therefore render true reversal impossible to do fairly. Of course, the stewards are happy to attempt to penalise fairly when they believe it apt, but since in that case the only person who loses out is the penalised driver, they’re not likely to have much sympathy if the driver thinks this is wrong…

        I also get the impression that the FIA would rather not see F1 become a system where competitors believe they can lobby their way out of penalties, or one where the result seen on track can never be trusted to hold (granted that the result sometimes changes nowadays, but that is because of things that come to light during or shortly after the race).

        Post-race stewarding penalties (such as disqualifications) can be appealed and sometimes are. Occasionally, they even succeed, which suggests that the “pride” issue isn’t as much of a factor as Carlos believes. The wider issue of erratic stewarding, however, appears to be on the rise again, after a few years of unusually-for-F1 egaliterian judgments. It is further confused by a rulebook that is self-contradicting in places and the opacity of reasons for judgment that was supposed to be corrected at the start 2009 (when the FIA promised we would get detailed rationale for all stewarding decisions – it never happened). It’s hard for stewards to be consistent with each other if there are many ways of interpreting the rules and no way to know which ones previous stewards were using!

    2. So the drivers at Red Bull have to be patient? I thought that concept was a myth to Red Bull.

      I’ve noticed many lower angles have returned. Personally I love having a huge variety of angles to see. Some low, some high, some static, some rotating, some actually moving. Some shots which show cars flashing past just for half a second, while others (cranes and helicopters) follow cars for a sector or two. Mixing it up really helps a lot.

    3. @gt-racer Thank you so much for that. Missed your original of it but so glad it is a worthy cotd. Encouraging and exciting to read. F1 is truly on a new path.

    4. nelson piquet
      21st April 2017, 0:33

      i just hope we see a non hamilton championship winner this year. just for the sake of variety

      1. Like last year?

        1. I agree, but Vettel winning 5 out of 8 championships isn’t really variety. We NEED Redbull to get better so maybe Max and/or Dan can be in the mix. I think Ferrari need to remove Raikkonen also, that is a wasted seat right now, has been for a while. They keep saying Kimi is good, that he just needs a “certain feel” from the front end, and that Ferrari just hasn’t delivered it yet, but it’s been years now and either they can’t give him it or he’s just slow now and it’s time to give someone faster the opportunity to challenge Vettel.

          1. Then again is red bull winning 5 out of 8 of either championship really any better?

            1. Ha I see what u did there. :)

    5. “Sainz Too Proud To Consider Reality!”

    6. Michael Brown (@)
      21st April 2017, 0:45

      Incident is 100% Sainz’s fault. Of course, Stroll could have avoided the collision, but he was not obligated to open the door for a guy who was going in too deep into the corner. Stroll had that apex.

      1. Carlos had the apex too…

        1. @mbr-9 I don’t think Sainz would have made the corner.

          Alex w No he had not, he was going straight or lock brakes.

        2. Michael Brown (@)
          21st April 2017, 3:32

          Turn 1 has a late apex, not an early apex. Sainz approached the corner as though the turn was a 90 corner.

        3. Sainz was behind Stroll, ergo the responsibility is on Sainz to not collide with the vehicle in front.

          1. @drycrust agreed, especially as he coming out of the pits, and was likely out of Stroll’s blindspot. The responsibility to avoid an incident here lies 100% on Sainz to avoid an incident.

    7. Neil (@neilosjames)
      21st April 2017, 0:46

      Practically, appeals wouldn’t work because there’s no way to reverse an in-race penalty… they can’t travel back in time and (for example) tell Lewis Hamilton he didn’t have to wait five seconds before the team could do his second pit stop. And it’d be entirely wrong to allow appeals for some penalties and not others, especially if they were given for breaching the same basic rule.

      But if we could remove that particular obstacle, I wouldn’t have a problem with an appeal system providing there was a downside to losing in order to deter every single decision being appealed. Maybe, if it’s deemed a driver has appealed out of typical racing driver pig-headedness and no reasonable steward could come to any conclusion other than he is to blame, he gets an extra 10-place grid penalty.

      Wonder if Sainz would still want to appeal (and if Toro Rosso would let him) if such a system existed…

      1. The appeals which are currently allowed require the team (not the driver) to lodge a $2000 fee, which is non-refundable, to initiate an appeal. Further layers of appeal, if initiated, have steadily-increasing fees. Perhaps that would work for driver appeals if the obstacle to which you refer was removed.

    8. Regarding COTD, The change in coverage is something I’ve noticed this year & I actually commented on another site over the Melbourne weekend that I was getting an F1 Digital+ vibe from the coverage.

      They have clearly had technical issues that need solving but I think overall the style of the coverage with the angles, camera work & directing has been a change for the better.

    9. I hadn’t thought about the TV coverage on the feed being substantially different until this COTD. Not locking onto an advertisers billboard for that extra long beat after the cars streamed past and the new variety of angles has really improved the televised part of the show (to be fair a motivated Vettel in an equal Ferrari has helped as well). I’ll wait and see though; Monaco is always where this trackside advertising pausing is at its absolute worst, particularly at the hairpin. Eagerly looking forward to more coverage advancements!

      1. Isn’t Monaco the one race where local TV covered the race and FOM didn’t?

        1. It is – but they do use the same tactic (if I recall correctly, they were doing it before FOM took to removing host broadcaster TV production priviledges in the early 2000s).

    10. Re: broadcast, I have also noticed they no longer cut to celebrity faces during the best battles!!! Amazing!!!

    11. I agree with COTD although I don’t credit over credit FOM. I think some of the improving camera work was not seen in Australia. Last season it was reaching rock bottom.
      Digital + camera positioning was often different to the world feed and some of the fancy tricks were only used in digital. In China and Bahrain the camera work was better but I might think it may be because the camera positioning has never changed, the newer tracks I believe have the worst vantage points.

      The biggest problem this season has been the on screen graphics, the timings and gaps are either not displayed or not displayed properly, the tyre information is now better it takes a while to process but it’s there. the system hasn’t evolved, it used to be the best, now on the info side motogp’s on the forefront.
      I think the director is still missing some variety there’s some many cameras.

      1. I hadn’t really noticed the improved angles, but agree the on-screen information is really poor.

        What’s really unnecessary and quite annoying for me is the need to show endless shots of cars breaking down and pulling over, cars coming in to the pits or driver getting out of the car, especially opening laps with so much on track action. A few second shot would do just fine, or even better would be to have it picture-in-picture.

        1. Ben Rowe (@thegianthogweed)
          21st April 2017, 20:28

          What really annoys me is when the TV coverage shows celebrities that clearly look board stiff and are staring at their phone instead of at leased waving to the camera. They sometimes do this for over 10 seconds even during a race! It is really stupid and pointless! Even if they wave to the camera, they spend too much time showing these clips instead of what we are meant to be watching. I also agree about the replays of mistakes or other moves. There was one time in practice I think it was where they seemed to show about 5 different replay clips from different angles of Hamilton going round the same corner. In that time, they could have shown Bottas’s entire lap which we barely saw any of.

        2. @balue Good idea, what about Picture in picture in qualifying, instead of having the camera on the front straight and wait for cars to go past, get perhaps a 4 way split screen ps2 style with all the quick guys on their own laps.

          @thegianthogweed The style of the graphics haven’t changed a bit in the past couple seasons, I agree that often these are intrusive, even though the tower is purposely grey and translucid, cars get caught on these, as you’ve said they could use the bottom one, last season they introduced the small bottom board but this year for some reason they haven’t been able to use it, I think they only used it for a couple laps last Sunday, don’t know why. Last weekend they used above all the “tower” at least it wasn’t as Melbourne where they only used that big box you are talking about, or nothing at all as in FP.

      2. Ben Rowe (@thegianthogweed)
        21st April 2017, 20:23

        I find the new graphics really disappointing. That is the ones showing the drivers positions anyway.
        There used to me a small board nicely put at the bottom of the screen in the middle. It just showed 5 drivers at a time. It also always included the time differences. Whereas now, you have this huge box of the left of your screen which to me, really spoils the view. The cars keep driving behind it. I find it very distracting. Also, a lot amount of the time, it doesn’t even show the time differences. So it takes up more space, shows less and is unreliable a lot of the time. IMO, most things to do with the graphics were far better last year.
        Others may think differently though.

    12. I heard that Alonso would be at Barber for sure on Saturday, and maybe Friday too, but wouldn’t be there for the race on Sunday.

      1. Interesting @georgeod. It makes sense to me, because during preparation on friday and saturday he will learn a lot about how the team operate when finding their setup, fine tuning the cars and laps and getting to know the crew. And they will probably have time to exlpain things.
        During the race he would be in the way in the garage, nobody really would have the time to explain much to him and Barber is a completely different approach than an oval race would be for strategy too.

    13. “I obviously was quite surprised with the grid drop. I thought they were going to consider it a racing incident,” Sainz explained.

      Oh please. Stop drinking the kool-aid. That incident was 100% your fault, and 100% avoidable. I’ve had respect for him before, but this brought him down a lot in my books – not the incident, but his attitude towards it.

      1. I’m not surprised by his attitude it’s been there all along. Carlos makes sure you notice when he’s out because of his car, he makes sure you notice him when he delivers regardless of whether his team mates car packed up and he keeps quiet when he’s outperformed.

        1. Yes, I agree with what you’re saying. And his relationship with Ves became quite toxic too in 2015 and early 2016. Most assume it’s because of Max and his entourage, but Sainz has these mannerisms of always looking/blaming external factors and sometimes a little bit behind the back. Also, unlike what many claim, I don’t actually agree that he matched Ves that closely in 2015, for many different reasons.

          Anyway, I want to jump to Sainz’s defense in this case about the accident with Stroll. Yes, it was Sainz’s mistake, technically, and he was far too optimistic. However, any other driver would have seen him coming and leave some space. He would then still be ahead exiting the corner. In other words, Stroll was entitled where he headed, but it was just dumb. He did the same thing in China when Perez bumped him out of the race. He needs to be more aware of where he and others are. Sainz is rightly upset about this, but obviously he should know better about the rookie. Also, the way he drives, it’s quite miraculous he hardly ever crashed. So maybe he was due.

    14. @keithcollantine on an unrelated note, when will the Predictions be updated?

    15. The one thing they desperately need to ditch on the broadcasts now is the 3-4+ minutes of replays of the start!

      It’s always been so frustrating watching the chaos of the first lap, then not seeing the next 2-3 laps as the battles continue.

      Please change this, ASAP!

      1. @ecwdanselby
        Yeah, it’s a bit ridiculous that they miss out the period when the cars are at their closest to show something we’ve already seen from one angle. Usually it’s just ‘oh, Hamilton got some wheelspin as he changed to 3rd’ or whatever, which isn’t really important by lap 3.

    16. From the CotD – great one by the way @gt-racer,

      Liberty have gone back to letting the TV team do things the way they want to do it and the improvements are only going to get even better as the year goes on

      I think this is key to a lot of things. It means that the TV crew can feel good about their job too. They can make a show how they feel it will make for the best way to show off the sport. And i am sure they are professionals who like to take pride in their work, just like everyone else in the sport.

      It can only be great news if the new atmosphere allows more of the people in the sport to feel good, to feel proud of what they are doing. It also means the best people are attracted to the job, because they can prove their skill there.

      I certainly know that the first 3 races have been a blast to follow, and I think the improved way of working has helped a lot. We got a lot less of “oh an ad-board shot” or WAG shots etc. and far more footage showing the cars off, going fast.

    17. Sainz should just admit mistake and keep quite. He only makes himself look silly at the moment.

    18. It’s 100% Sainz’s fault.The fact is i don’t like Stroll and others might not like him but that’s irrelevant and facts remain facts.


      onboard video of yesterdays GP3 car test by Robert Kubica! righ hand looks to be working fine with manual gear change.

      1. actually that wasn’t him driving sorry, was a clickbait video.

    20. On the contrary, I believe there should be an opportunity for an appeal, Stewards can get it wrong, and have on several occasions. And since we still have a follow on points penalty, there is an opportunity to reduce the impact.

      This was an odd racing incident that is not easily repeatable because it requires an extraordinary coincidence of time and track position.
      The illusion Stroll was ahead swayed the stewards decision. Sainz had to accelerate on exiting the pit, while Stroll was losing time braking. And there is no reference in braking relative to a driver already on track. The reason it looks like Sainz was too fast for that corner is because Stroll had changed his direction to make the second corner. Sainz had no obligation to follow that trajectory, as he could afford to run deeper and carry that momentum into the second corner.

      All of this can be solved if you had pit exits that blended into the race track prefarably at a straight and not at corners.

      1. Maldonado would agree with you, this Sainz crash was a carbon copy of Maldonado crashing into Sauber in 2014. Luckily for Stroll these new cars are heavier so he didnt go into roll like that 2014 crash. Also what illusion are you talking about? what crap are you smoking, just watch onboard footage of crash and you can clearly see Strolls car ahead of Sainz and if that isn’t enough for you, just look where Sainz hit Stroll’s car. If Sainz would have been in front of Stroll at any point wheels of both cars would have made contact or stroll would have destroyed Sainz’s car.

        1. I say a guy leaving the pit lane doesn’t have a braking reference and it is easy for you watching on TV to be an expert, unlike if you were sat in the car. I talked about blending pit exits into straights and not corners, are you smoking something not to realise that is a better solution to unnecessary accidents.

    21. The Vijay Mallya extradition will be fun to watch. This guy is India’s version of the crooked Flavio Briatore.

      1. Actually Mallya is even worse than Briatore, many of his former employees have committed suicide due bankruptcy brought on by Mallya withholding salaries for 7 months.

    22. Then Ricciardo and Verstappen will make the Indy 500 in 2020.

    23. Following on from @gt-racer ‘s COTD, I noticed whilst watching onboard footage from the early 2000s that the t-cam’s had a shorter focal length and therefore a wider field of view. Being able to see a bit more of the peripheral in this way enhanced the perception of speed and is something FOM/Liberty should seriously consider returning to. Obviously not too wide a FOV, otherwise we’d end up with a distorted fish-eye effect, but enough to show just how quickly objects pass by when looking at the far left and right of the screen.

      And, as has been mentioned before, it would be nice to incorporate more stationary shots into the coverage to highlight the car’s speed relative to its surroundings, rather than just having the cameras constantly tracking (but then the sponsor’s wouldn’t like that too much, would they?).

      1. The shorter focal lengths on onboards are what we’ve been complaining about for a long time.

    24. Junior is BLIND or what?!…

    25. The on screen timing has been absolute garbage this season. The (short lived) mini-loops in Australia were great but we had nothing during the race, and apparently the mini-loops weren’t sustainable because they’ve disappeared too. I really hope they get it sorted out, it’s sort of pathetic to not have done after a month. If nothing else, the timing ticker is a must-have for the race – at least bring that back. It’s worse than in a long time.

    26. Hey I just noticed that they’re calling the race in Baku the ‘Azerbaijan Grand Prix’, instead of the ‘European GP’ like last year. See? A sign that globalization is starting to fail. This is the beginning of the end of outsourcing. :p

    27. I’m sorry, apparently I’m missing something… I don’t get all the complaints about the missing timing ticker. They now show all the delta times for all drivers next to the standing during the race, and these times seems to be constantly updated. So now you can see immediately the actual time delta for the driver(s) you want instead of waiting for them to appear in the ticker. So what am I missing?

    28. Perez Mclaren year was not even close to what Alonso has to endure, however Alonso been smart to put the blame away from him, something Perez didn’t do even the car was not done right, Mclaren sold us to expect a world champion but couldn’t deliver him the car.

      However Perez after 2 yrs racing and as new arrival to a supposedly big team manage to out qualified Button a world champion, who was defacto number one and establish on the team for yrs, a feat Bottas would be praise if manage in Mercedes against Hamilton this year, which is possible as Nico and Button showed in past years.

      Perez racecraft has developed in top notch, dominant overtakes, zero mistakes and consistent point scorer while driving the wheels of that limited force india car, properly leading his team with the eventual podium to keep always punching way above their weight.

      He is proving he can also attack and not just save tires, can’t wait to see him have a chance in a race winning car.

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